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Monday, June 22, 2009

Biblical Cosmology and Its Problems

 
That the Bible has problems with its cosmology is an old and uninteresting fact to plenty of people.  However, I live in a world in which there are still too many other people who take the Bible far too seriously, making claims that it is perfect/inerrant.  It is with such fundamentalists in mind that I post the following:

3-tiered Cosmos:

Very many ancient people, including plenty of Jews and Christians and the writers of various books/verses of the Bible, believed in a 3-tiered universe:
  1. the heavens above,
  2. the flat earth below (a flat circle/disk or a flat square, although this changed with time),
  3. sheol/ hades/ hell/ tartarus beneath the earth.

e.g.

•    Php 2:10: "at the name of Jesus every knee should bow in heaven and on earth and under the earth"

•    Rev 5:3: "no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth"


Every knee "under the earth"?

Really?

Heaven IS the sky in the Bible:


Ancient people believed God, or the Gods, lived up in the sky. In Hebrew, the word for sky is shamayim; in Greek the word is ouranos.  People did not have two different words for sky and heaven; they were the same place.  Only moderns make a distinction.  So when English Bibles translate shamayim and ouranos sometimes as sky and sometimes as heaven, they mislead modern readers into thinking there was a difference. In the Bible, the shamayim/ouranos is a place
  • where god lives;
  • where the angels live;
  • where the sun and moon move around;
  • where the stars are;
  • where rain, thunder, and lightning come from;
  • where there are storehouses of hail, snow, and wind;
  • where the clouds are;
  • where birds fly.

If you will do a search for the occurrences of shamayim/sky/heaven/ouranos in the OT and check out the original languages, you will see that this is the case.  Do you have a Strong’s concordance of the Bible? 


The Firmament:


Genesis 1:6–8:  “God [Elohiym] said, ‘Let there be a firmament [raqiya] in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.’ And God [Elohiym] made the firmament [raqiya], and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God [Elohiym] called the firmament Heaven [shamayim]. And the evening and the morning were the second day.”

The Hebrew word used for "firmament" is "raqiya,” an extended solid surface or flat expanse, considered to be a hemisphere above the Earth. The word is derived from “raqa,” meaning "beaten out" or to spread material by beating/hammering/stamping (like metal).  That’s why Elihu asks Job, “Can you beat out [raqa] the skies, as he does, hard as a mirror of cast metal?” (Job 37:18). In the 400’s, Jerome used the Latin word firmamentum, “support, prop, mainstay; support group” to translate the word.

  • Genesis 1:14-17:  “And God [Elohiym] said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth": and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: the stars also.
  • The firmament has windows that El/Yahweh opens to let rain come down (Gen 7:11, 8:2). 
  • Job 28:32 speaks of “the storehouses of the snow” and “the storehouses of the hail” in shamayim.
  • Ezekiel 1:22:  “Spread out above the heads of the living creatures was what looked like a firmament, sparkling like ice, and awesome.”

Today we know this is erroneous.  The "heavens" are not a firmament.  The "heavens" are not a vault.

Shamayim/Ouranos/Sky/Heaven and Yahweh/El/God are above the earth:


  • Job 9:8, “...who by himself spread out the heavens [shamayim]...”
  • Job 22:12, 14:  "Is not God [Eloah] in the heights of heaven [shamayim]?  And see how lofty are the highest stars!  . . .  he goes about in the vaulted heavens.'   (n.b. El/Eloah/Yahweh (god) is in the sky.)
  • Psalm 19:1, “The heavens [shamayim] tell out the glory of God [El], the vault of heaven [raqiya] reveals his handiwork.”
  • “In them [shamayim], a tent is fixed for the sun, who comes out like a bridegroom from his wedding canopy, rejoicing like a strong man to run his race. His rising is at one end of the heavens, his circuit touches their farthest ends; and nothing is hidden from his heat (Psalm 19:4-6).”  (n.b.  The sun moves in the heavens in circuit over the stationary earthGeocentric model.) 
  • Psalm 102:25, “...the heavens [shamayim] were thy handiwork.”
  • Isaiah 40:22:  “It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.”  This ancient Jewish writer pictured God sitting on a throne (like a human king) way up in the sky, so high that humans look like grasshoppers.
  • Isaiah 45:12, El says “I, with my own hands, stretched out the heavens [shamayim] and caused all their host to shine...”
  • Isaiah 48:13, “...with my right hand I formed the expanse of the sky [shamayim] ...”
  • “You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God [El]; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.  I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High God [Elyown]." (Isaiah 14:13-14).
  • Ezekiel 1:22-26; Ezekiel 10:1. Above the vault is a throne of sapphire (or lapis lazuli). Seated on the throne is “a form in human likeness,” which is radiant and “like the appearance of the glory of the Lord.”  Ezekiel saw a vision of God sitting enthroned on the vault of heaven.
  • Joshua 10:13.  “So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, till the nation avenged itself . . . The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day.”  This fits the ancient view that the sun and moon both move in the vault of heaven, while the earth is stationary.
  • Stars can fall from the sky to earth according to Daniel 8:10, Matthew 24:29, Mark 13:25, Revelation 6:13, Revelation 8:10, Revelation 9:1 and Revelation 12:4 (It is sometimes claimed that these "falling stars" are meteors, but such is a lame attempt at apologetics; the writers of these tales were ignorant and made no distinction; the swipe of a dragon's tail dislodges "one-third of all the stars in the sky" in Revelation 12:4.  ).
    • Isaiah 34:4:  “All the stars of the heavens will be dissolved and the sky rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree.
    • Daniel 8:10:  “It grew until it reached the host of the heavens, and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and trampled on them.”
    • Mark 13:25:  “the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.”
    • Matthew 24:29:  "Immediately after the distress of those days 'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’”
    • Revelation 6:13-16:  “...the stars in the sky [ouranos] fell to the earth, like figs shaken down by a gale; the sky [ouranos] vanished, as a scroll is rolled up...they called out to the mountains and the crags, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One who sits on the throne...”
  • Shamayim has windows which God can open to let the waters above fall to the surface as rain (Genesis 7:11, Genesis 8:2, Isaiah 24:18-19, Jeremiah 51:15-16, and Malachi 3:10).
  • Job 28:32 speaks of “the storehouses of the snow” and “the storehouses of the hail” in shamayim.  And Jeremiah 51:16: “He brings up the mist from the ends of the earth, he opens rifts for the rain and brings the wind out of his storehouses.”  Ignorant ancient people, such as the writer of this book of the Bible, believed that there were storehouses of snow, rain, and wind up in the sky where God lived.
  • Tower of Babel story in Genesis 11:4-7:  "Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens [shamayim], so that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of the whole earth."  . . .  But the LORD [Yahweh] came down to see the city and the tower that the men were building.  The LORD [Yahweh] said, . . . “Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other."
  • Exodus 19:11:  “be ready by the third day, because on that day the LORD [Yahweh] will come down on Mount Sinai in the sight of all the people.
  • Exodus 19:20:  “The LORD [Yahweh] came down to the top of Mount Sinai and called Moses to the top of the mountain.”
  • Numbers 11:17:  “I will come down and speak with you”
  • Numbers 11:25:  “Then the LORD [Yahweh] came down in the cloud and spoke with him.”
  • Joshua 10:11:  “The LORD [Yahweh] hurled large hailstones down on them from the heavens [shamayim]”
  • 2 Kings 1:12:  “Then the fire of God [Elohiym] fell from heaven [shamayim] and consumed him and his fifty men.”

The New Testament is just as bad:

  • Luke 10:18:  He [Jesus] replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven [ouranos].”
  • In Acts, Jesus is depicted as rising into the sky until a cloud hid him from view (Acts 1:9-11).
    • This is comparable to other ancient people's beliefs about gods descending from the sky where they live, or heroic god-men ascending to heaven at or after their deaths. 
      • Example:  Romulus:  According to Roman histories written before Christianity developed, Romulus, the first king of Rome, son of God/Mars by the virgin Rhea Sylvia, ascended into heaven from a mountain when a cloud hid him from view.  Some sources said there was an eclipse of the sun at the same time.  Romulus subsequently appeared to a Roman senator and sent him with a message for his people explaining what happened and prophesying the future greatness of Rome.  Romulus was then known as the God Quirinus, and he received prayers on behalf of the city.  The story can be found in Livy (1st century BCE), Dionysius of Halicarnassus (1st century BCE), and Plutarch's biography of Romulus (c. 100 CE), and it is mentioned by Cicero (1st century BCE) and Ennius (239 - c. 169 BCE). 
      • Example:  Heracles:  According to ancient Greeks, Heracles / Hercules was son of God / Zeus by Alcmene.  Heracles went to Hades and back, and he brought at least one mortal back from death, Alcestis.  Heracles was tortured by a poisonous cloak and died painfully on a pyre, but he rose ino heaven to live forever as divine.  Greeks believed he was real.
      • Many Romans believed that Julius Caesar ascended to heaven and became divine after his death.  Augustus Caesar, his adopted heir, thus called himself "son of a God" and printed this on his coins.
      • The early Christian movement was compelled to invent a story at least as miraculous as these earlier stories.  How else could it trump the other superstitions of the day?
  • Revelation 1:7:  "Look he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him..."  (flat earth and imminent eschatology).

Yes, some really believed that divinity was anthropomorphic and lived up in the sky.

The earth is stationary:


  • 1 Chronicles 16:30: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable.”
  • Psalm 93:1: “Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm ...”
  • Psalm 96:10: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable ...”
  • Psalm 104:5: “Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken.”
  • Isaiah 45:18: “...who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast...”
  • The following speak of earth's foundations:  2 Samuel 22:16, Job 38:4, Psalm 18:15, Proverbs 8:29, Isaiah 24:18, etc.


The earth is flat or a hill, not a sphere:


  • Daniel 4:10-11.  The king “saw a tree of great height at the center of the earth...reaching with its top to the sky and visible to the earth's farthest bounds.”  In the writer’s imagination, the earth is flat, so an extremely tall tree would be visible to “the earth's farthest bounds,” but this is impossible on a spherical earth.
  • Matthew 4:8: “Once again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in their glory.”  Obviously, this would be possible only if the earth were flat.  Either the inventor of the story thought the earth was flat, or this was meant to be a symbolic parable and not a real event in a historical biography, or both.  Some say the sight was "spiritual," but if so, why would the "high mountain" be necessary?
  • Revelation 1:7: “Behold, he is coming with the clouds! Every eye shall see him...” 
  • Jeremiah 51:16: “He brings up the mist from the ends of the earth.”


Hell is below the earth:


The Bible teaches that just as the sky/heaven is above the earth, so is hell below/within the earth. Consider the following:

  • Mt 11:23: "You will go down to Hades." (also Lk 10:15)
  • Mt 12:40: "For as Jonah was 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of the sea creature, so the son of man will be 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth."
  • 1Pt 3:18-20: "He was put to death in the body but made alive by the spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago..."
  • Php 2:10: "at the name of Jesus every knee should bow in heaven and on earth and under the earth"
  • Eph 4:9-10: "What does 'he ascended' mean except that he also descended to the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is the very one who ascended far above all the heavens in order to fill all things."
  • 2Pt 2:4: "God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but sent them to Tartarus, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgement." (Tartarus is the lowest region of the underworld in Greek mythology.)
  • Rev 5:3: "no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth"
  • Rev 5:13: "every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea"

Commentary:


Many ancient people, including the the writers of certain parts of the Bible, held such beliefs as these:
  • that hell was under the ground,
  • that the earth was stationary,
  • that God or the Gods or their angelic servants made the sun and moon move across the sky above the stationary earth,
  • that God or the Gods had emotions, senses, and personalities, just as humans do,
  • that God or the Gods lived up in the sky [although many had come to believe the more abstract and somewhat contradictory belief that God was everywhere, making it necessary to explain away older  references to a God who was not omnipresent (cf. Gen 11:4-7)]. 

If a single one of these is wrong, then the Bible contains error.

It was only 400 years ago (in the time of Copernicus, d.1543, and Galileo, d.1642, whose theories the Church at first condemned) that science overturned the geocentric/earth-centered model of the universe and began to drive ancient geocentric cosmology from human minds. 

[Earlier Greek discoveries had not gained sufficient acceptance.]

Now we know that the cosmology of the Bible (and much other ancient literature) is incorrect.  Most people nowadays will admit that the earth moves around the sun, but the fundamentalists need to face the facts that such truths contradict certain passages in the Bible and that the Bible was written by fallible humansThe same goes for the age of the earth and human origins, about which the ancient Christians and the writers of the Bible had no clue -- (cf. Genesis and Luke's genealogy of Jesus, with its 77 generations of humans from God to Jesus through Adam -- http://www.geocities.com/investigatingchristianity/OTChrono.html.).

Some, both ancient and modern, desire(d) to imagine heaven and hell as existing in some invisible dimension, but as demonstrated above, numerous passages in the Bible do say that heaven is above the earth and that rain, snow, angels, stars, the sun, and god are there, and multiple passages say that hell is below the earth.  The attempt to remove things to "another dimension" is an evasive effort to salvage primitive ideas by relocating them to an imaginary place inaccessible to scrutiny or evidence.

In Acts, Jesus is depicted as rising literally into the sky until a cloud hid him from view (Acts 1:9-11).  Did that really happen?  A cloud?  Why?   And in Revelation 1:7 a Christian writer says, "Look he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him..." Such descriptions are clues that the ascension and other stories are fiction, and at the very least should not be taken as literally true. 

It would be pointless for Jesus to have gone up into the sky; nothing is up there but air.  And if heaven were in some other dimension, Jesus could have simply disappeared into that other dimension; there would be no need for an ascension.  Over which country are Jesus, Romulus, and Hercules hovering in the clouds right now?  The fact that the Christian story depicts Jesus going up into the air to heaven simply betrays their ancient world view that heaven was the upper sky; and this is one of the many clues that the story is a fabrication along with other ancient stories of ascending man-gods like Romulus and Heracles.

Also, many early Christians, such as the writer of Revelation 1:7, thought Jesus would come back down in the clouds and that everyone would see him, and they thought he would come back so soon that his murderers would still be alive!

[n.b.  Many early Christians erroneously thought Jesus was coming back soon, within their lifetimes:  Mk 9:1;13:30; 14:61-62; 1 Thess 4:15-17; 1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 7:26, 29; 15:51-52;  Romans 13:11-12; 1 Peter 4:7; Revelation 1:1-3;  3:11; 16:15; 22:6, 7, 10, 12, 20.  Now, believers often feel forced to try all kinds of re-interpretations of these embarrassments, just as with other problems.]   

They did not know the earth spun on its axis, and many did not know that the earth was an oblique spheroid; so they did not have a problem thinking everyone at the same time would be able to see Jesus come down from the heights of heaven.  Today, those Christians who still hold this belief feel forced to try to resolve the issue by saying, "Maybe it will somehow be a spiritual event that all will see in the spirit."  Idle and silly talk.  Spiritual clouds?   Cloudy ideas.  Then there are those, believe it or not, who have claimed that this was a prophecy of satellite television -- i.e. We will all see him on television when he returns (a view at times advocated by Pat Robertson in the 1990's, ignoring the imminent eschatology)!


Even those too fearful to admit the truth of these last points should admit that some aspects of the cosmology espoused by the Bible were/are erroneous if taken at face value.

 http://www.geocities.com/investigatingchristianity/  .





 Posted 6/22/2009 8:48 PM - 23 Views - 4 eProps - 4 comments

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Visit FKIProfessor's Xanga Site!
Good grief, Charlie Brown. I'm not sure where to begin. So I suppose right now I won't. Suffice it to say that while you bring up many excellent points, some of your conclusions are inaccurate. I hope to return to address some of the specifics later, but time is against me just now. Still, you have put a lot of effort into this and there are some interesting points which deserve to be addressed.
Posted 6/23/2009 8:25 AM by FKIProfessor Xanga True Member - reply

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A lot of good quotation to back up a fallacious argument. The only people you will refute with this line of reasoning are those brain dead literalists who know neither science nor the Bible. The ancients weren't literalists in the sense you describe nor were they as rigid as today's creationists. Take some time to study Jewish Talmudic interpretations of the Torah in the years between the Old and New Testaments, Christian Philosophy in the first centuries and the grand tradition of analytic theology in the middle ages. You will find none of the straw men you have vanquished here.
Posted 6/23/2009 12:06 PM by herzog3000 Xanga True Member Xanga Premium Member - reply

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@herzog3000 - 

Thanks Herzog.

>> You wrote, "The only people you will refute with this line of reasoning are those brain dead literalists"

I would consider it a boon-to-education to refute such people. They may well be my principle target.

I come from a part of the U.S. where a significant portion of the population takes the Bible very seriously and considers it perfect and infallible. They need to learn not to put blind faith in the literal truth of this old man-made set of books.

- - -

>> You wrote, "The ancients weren't literalists in the sense you describe nor were they as rigid as today's creationists."

A great many WERE literalists.

Let me offer you some examples.


1. If Christians did not believe erroneous Biblical cosmology, even in the 1600's, then why did the Roman Catholic Church's Congregation of the Index issue a decree in 1616 suspending Copernicus' De revolutionibus until the Church could "correct" it, objecting that it contained "heresy" and that the idea of a mobile Earth and immobile Sun was "false" and "altogether contrary to Holy Scripture," and prohibiting any work that defended the mobility of the Earth or the immobility of the Sun?

[wikipedia article on Copernicanism quoting the Decree of the General Congregation of the Index, March 5, 1616, translated from the Latin by Finocchiaro (1989, pp.148-149). on-line at http://web.archive.org/web/20070930013053/http://astro.wcupa.edu/mgagne/ess362/resources/finocchiaro.html#indexdecree]


Why was Galileo convicted of suspicion of heresy and put under house arrest until his death simply for "following the position of Copernicus, which is contrary to the true sense and authority of Holy Scripture"?

[wikipedia article on Copernicanism quoting the Inquisition's sentence of June 22, 1633. Cited in Giorgio de Santillana, The Crime of Galileo. U. of Chicago Press, 1955 (1976—Midway reprint), pp.306-310; Maurice A. Finocchiaro, The Galileo Affair: A Documentary History. U. of California Press, 1989, pp. 287-91]

2. You should look at the Book of Enoch and its cosmology. It purports to be the writing of Enoch concerning visions granted him by God. The Book of Enoch goes back to about 300 BCE. It was very influential in early Christianity; it is quoted in the Bible in Jude 1:14-15 as if it is sacred scripture, and many early church leaders quoted it as well. It was also influential in Judaism, whence it came, and was found among the Dead Sea Scrolls. If you will look at its cosmology, you will see that it fits quite well with what I have outlined above. Pay special attention to the Book of the Courses of the Heavenly Luminaries (1 Enoch 72-82), available here for free: http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/boe/boe075.htm. Here is a sample:

3. For the signs and the times and the years and the days the angel Uriel showed to me, whom the Lord of glory hath set for ever over all the luminaries of the heaven, in the heaven and in the world, that they should rule on the face of the heaven and be seen on the earth, and be leaders for the day and the night, i.e. the sun, moon, and stars, and all the ministering creatures which make their revolution in all the chariots of the heaven. 4. In like manner twelve doors Uriel showed me, open in the circumference of the sun's chariot in the heaven, through which the rays of the sun break forth: and from them is warmth diffused over the earth, when they are opened at their appointed seasons. 5. [And for the winds and the spirit of the dew when they are opened, standing open in the heavens at the ends.] 6. As for the twelve portals in the heaven, at the ends of the earth, out of which go forth the sun, moon, and stars, and all the works of heaven in the east and in the west. 7. There are many windows open to the left and right of them, and one window at its (appointed) season produces warmth, corresponding (as these do) to those doors from which the stars come forth according as He has commanded them, and wherein they set corresponding to their number. 8. And I saw chariots in the heaven, running in the world, above those portals in which revolve the stars that never set. 9. And one is larger than all the rest, and it is that that makes its course through the entire world. (Book of Enoch 75:3-9)

The rest of Enoch has much more of interest. And as I said, it was a very popular book.

Of course I do not take this seriously. I do not think angels are in charge of pushing the sun across the upper sky. Do you? But plenty of ancients really did believe God put angels in charge of such things, and they did believe the sun moved across the heaven over a stationary earth, just as the Bible asserts. Regarding angels, my Catholic grandparents in the 20th century CE still thought God and his angels were in charge of running all natural events.

3. Are you familiar with the Hebrew calendar, which counts the years since creation? It is on a "Young Earth Creationist" model. This is from wikipedia's "Anno Mundi" article:

"Years in the Hebrew calendar are counted from the Creation year. The system in use today was adopted sometime before 3925 AM (165 CE), and based on the calculation in the Seder Olam Rabbah of Rabbi Yose Ben Halafta in about 160 CE.[1] By his calculation first humans were created in the year 3760 BCE. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anno_Mundi]

Once again, we see that these particular Christians and Jews DID take the Bible literally and seriously, and they are typical in so doing. Ancient Jews, writers of the Pentateuch, had no clue where or how humans originated. They had stories/myths, just like other nations did.

4. Consider the problems other scientific fields (e.g. biological evolution and geology) have faced in dealing with Christians who oppose scientific theories and texts based on their incompatibility with "sacred" scripture. Plenty of people in the world have interpreted Biblical passages quite literally and plenty have made lofty claims about the truth value of the Bible. To this I object. From this I would like to see people freed by better education.

- - -

Sure, not ALL ancients were literalists, but the majority seem to have been, especially the common people, and especially the further back you go into history.

Not only did plenty of ancient Hebrews think Yahweh had emotions like a human and sent rain and thunder from the sky (as is reflected in the Bible), but they inherited these ideas from the older nations in the Middle East, and almost all Mediterranean cultures adopted such ideas. Sumerian, Babylonian, Egyptian, and Greek literature reflect so many of the same themes as Judeo-Christian literature. Look at their systems of animal sacrifice, for example, their attempts to placate emotional personal gods, or the fact that they all prayed with their hands lifted to the sky, where they often claimed the most important gods lived.

- - -

You mention the Talmud, but

1. the Talmud is a later set of interpretations (not written until 200-500 CE) of the older Jewish scriptures,

2. Christians did not use the Talmud when interpreting the Old Testament, (nor did the original Biblical authors, obviously, when creating their literature ;),

3. I would like for you to show me specifically which interpretations given in the Talmud should change my conclusions, and how. Do you have any examples to offer?

- - -

You mention Christian philosophy, but

1. Which books of the Bible were written by Christian philosophers?

2. To which Christian philosophers do you refer? When did they live? To which specific opinions do you refer, and how do such opinions affect either my conclusions OR the intent of the previous writers of the Biblical books.

- - -

Literal interpretations versus non-literal interpretations:

The Greeks had the same issue with interpreting their traditional religion.

Everyday Greeks took the anthropomorphic gods, Heracles, Zeus in the sky sending rain and thunder, etc. pretty seriously, apparently. One may read their literature (e.g. Herodotus and the tragedians) or notice how philosophers who questioned the gods were persecuted and/or had their books banned (e.g. Anaxagoras, Protagoras, Socrates, Diagoras of Melos).

Xenophanes, Plato, Aristotle, and many subsequent philosophers criticized Homer's Iliad and Odyssey and other Greek writings for portraying the gods to be like humans, showing emotions, behaving immorally, expressing anger, etc.. Stoics developed allegorical and naturalistic interpretations of older Greek literature and proposed that the original ancient writers (like Homer) were aware of the allegorical/mythical nature of their writing but that the common people were not educated enough to understand such. Educated philosophical Romans like Quintus Mucius Scaevola, Varro, Cicero, and others made a 3-fold distinction among the gods of philosophy, the gods of traditional poetry/literature, and the gods of the state [e.g. see Augustine De Civitate Dei 4.27, quoting Varro]. In this way of thinking, the gods of philosophy were basically Natural forces, all manifestations of the true God, i.e. the Universe/Cosmos and/or the rational/ordering principle therein (in the Stoic system). That was true divinity, but uneducated people needed their superstitious fears, and religion was useful to governments for controlling the populace.

Such philosophers were in the minority. The majority of people seem to have been credulous.

Within Christianity, I would not deny that there were philosophers and mystics who did not take the Bible at face value. People have interpreted the Bible all kinds of ways. But common Christians through the ages seem to have had quite a literal interpretation of what they read in the Bible. Then there are those who spout off about the perfect infallibility of the Bible yet have not even read it.

The Bible is a book full of problems, inaccuracies, anachronisms, and bad ideas, and if I can expose some of these problems and bad ideas to modern people who still live in a medieval mindset, then I will do so.


- - - -

If you do not believe Jesus rose up in a cloud, then I am delighted. If you do NOT believe

-- that there is an angry sky god,
-- that all humans have broken an alleged "contract" with "him,"
-- that there is no forgiveness without the shedding of blood (Heb 9:22), and
-- that substitutionary sacrifice is no mere unethical primitive notion but is the key to salvation,

then I earnestly applaud you. But I have to deal with people who really believe such things, and they get their beliefs from the Bible, from other people who rely on the Bible, and from traditions derived from the Bible.

Perhaps you can see my larger aims at http://www.geocities.com/investigatingchristianity/index.html.


Maybe you can help me refine some things??
Posted 6/23/2009 6:05 PM by WindOnReed2 - reply

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Very well written and I am glad you took time to address my points directly. No mere reactionary are you. For that I tip my hat.


However you are making a category error.


Any conclusions you are drawing about the commitment the ancient writers had to the cosmology constructed from their holy texts are your own modern projection. You are placing the mindset of one with knowledge of the scientific method backwards over the eons into the minds of people who had no capacity to see beyond the end of their own lands, much less the solar system. Your definition of "literalist" loses meaning in this context. There are things "out there" "above" "unseen" that are being referred to in the texts. The ancients didn't put the kind of physical weight on those ideas you are using here. They had other priorities, such as proper worship ceremonies and moral laws.


Your original essay is using modern astronomy to refute a vague, loosely apprehended conception held by people living thousands of years ago? That's a metaphysical square peg trying to fit a round hole in religion.


The early Hebrews did have an anthropological understanding of the acts of God and a henotheistic understanding of His existence which evolved over time into the deeply abstract, ineffable understanding that Jews have today. You state the influence of other religions as if this were some fatal attack. Biblical revelations have always included the wider context of those receiving the message. (Cf Paul's speech on the Unknown God in Acts.)


I can't quote Talmud at the moment as I am at work, away from my home library but go ask a rabbi. The Jews and Hebrews never were rigid in their understanding of Genesis and similar texts the way modern fundamentalist sects are today. (Ask about the Hebrew calendar and he will quickly disassociate its function from its origins.) Only the Creationists born from the hair splitters of the Protestant branches in the United States (look up the Millerites) from about the late 1800s to the early Revivals up to the 1920s interpret doctrine and biblical descriptions in such an immutably narrow way. (There is even a King James Only movement that sees that one translation alone as the inspired word of God, forgetting the Greek and Hebrew originals.)


The trial of Galileo was indeed over the reality of the biblical description of the order of the heavenly bodies but I would submit that this was part of a larger trend in the RCC to codify and answer every theological implication of scripture. This path led to strange non-biblical doctrines like limbo, purgatory and papal infallibility. For comparison, the Eastern Orthodox Church never held those doctrines and never to a rigid understanding of Genesis. Read the early church fathers (most textbooks on this subject include those three terms in their titles) and you will have trouble finding any who speak beyond vague terms about the details of the Creation or the End Times or heaven or hell for that matter. With Galileo they took a description of a particular visual perspective (the sun moved across the sky) and derived a separate statement of physical truth that we now know is incorrect. Taken at face value however it is the extrapolation, not the biblical text that was wrong. The sun does appear to move across the sky and the text is too vague and unqualified to say more than that.


When I speak of Christian philosophy I am speaking of the early church fathers (from 120AD to before the Great Schism although the Apostle John can be argued to be the true father of this scholarship) who wrote extensively on theological matters and referenced Greek and Roman philosophers (as well as deuterocanonical books like Enoch). In many cases they were educated as such before conversion. (Augustine is my personal favorite. That guy is deep.) But as with other writers on religious matters, astrophysics will be low on the priority list of subjects covered.


The thrust of your work here seems to be to flawed in confusing your definitions, using today's common use of "literal understanding" with what was understood in ancient times. I like your use of Plato because it makes my point. Like Glaucon in his Parmenides dialogue, he believed in the religion of his time but in full knowledge that the details don't work out. You can only take things literally when the text requires you to in the way it requires you to.


For example, my physics texts describe "electrical current" as "running" or "flowing" through the wire. I know better. Higher level texts I have on quantum mechanics show that there are no actual "electrons" moving from here to there. Reality that level isn't so simple. But I take the first book seriously and quite literally when I refuse to plug my 120V alarm clock into a 240V appliance socket because I know the excess energy can manifest itself as fire. I don't need to know about charge, spin, or Heisenberg's uncertainty to understand that.


Let me leave you one last logical retort. You cannot use acknowledged errors or "the majority of people" to make your case.


The Roman Catholic Church as recanted its position on Galileo (and many other things) and no longer stands behind those injunctions so to reference it for what the church believes today is a straw man argument as I mentioned before. (I am not referring to your use of that event to judge the Church of that time, which is legitimate.)


When the common people have a misconception or a simplistic understanding of the things that the educated class have command over (such as the Levites in the OT or the Apostles in the NT) then you cannot therefore conclude things about official doctrine based on what they believe. You are purposely singling out weak positions for your attacks and then judging them for being weak. That is just begging the question as you have loaded your conclusion into your presupposition.


As for me, I believe fully in the death and physical resurrection of the actual historical Person of Jesus Christ and that I am atoned by that historical event. Can I prove that assertion to you? To anyone? No, of course not. It is a matter of faith. Not physics.


Posted 6/23/2009 8:27 PM by herzog3000 Xanga True Member Xanga Premium Member - reply


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